We’re excited to introduce you to the always interesting and insightful Jonathan Goss. We hope you’ll enjoy our conversation with Jonathan below.

Jonathan, thanks for taking the time to share your stories with us today Can you talk to us about how you learned to do what you do?

Writing is like any profession. You learn by observing those better than you. And then you practice, practice, practice. I had been attempting to write novels since I was 12 years old. The Heavenly Realms project zapped me like a lightning bolt when I was 17. It took another twenty years to see it come to fruition. During that time, I never stopped writing. Discipline carries the day. Skill wins out over talent. And don’t stop reading. Steven Pressfield is my favorite author (he’s also one helluva gentleman). Reading “Gates of Fire” and “The War of Art” changed my life. We interview him regularly on The Gosslings and I’m always amazed at how humble he is. The man is like the Obiwan Kenobi of writing. John Milton’s “Paradise Lost” taught me much about epic poetry. Glen Cook’s “Chronicles of the Black Company” was a master class in pacing and minimalist characterization. Frank Herbert taught me everything I know about internal monologues vs action. Robert Heinlein’s “Starship Troopers” educated me on how to incorporate one’s own philosophy into the prose. The list goes on. Wallace Breem’s “Eagle in the Snow”. Herman Melville. Mark Twain (if you’ve never read “Letters from the Earth” and “The Diaries of Adam and Eve”, you’re missing out). And don’t even get me started on Milorad Pavic’s works. If you want to see how avant-garde formatting can add a dimensional element to your writing, read “Dictionary of the Khazars” or “The Inner Side of the Wind”.

But if I had to do it all over again, I would have finished college with an English degree and gone into periodicals or some other form of publication. I didn’t realize it then, but you need a network if you want to succeed in the traditional publishing world. I’ve been self-publishing through Amazon KDP for a few years now but, back in the day, I had stacks of rejection letters from every agency and publishing house out there. Everyone had their reasons. None of them matter now. But a lot of heartache could’ve been saved along the way if I’d have worked in the industry and built a rapport with people. You need connections. The slush pile is huge and you’re not special. The chances of someone discovering you and slapping their name on your approval are infinitesimal. Remember: it’s not what you know; it’s who you know. Skill and talent will prove your worth, but you have to get your foot in the door first (this is what separates “networking” from “nepotism”). Plus, I think getting a formal education exposes you to more. Broadening your creative horizons can only serve you, in the end. I denied myself these things, so I operated largely in a vacuum. You can imagine the dunderheaded agony I put myself through as a result.

Even so, the road is fraught with trials and tribulations. You’ll hit a rough patch. I didn’t write for nearly five years. I felt like I’d wasted my twenties. “That was another life,” I told people. “I failed. It’s over.” Of course that’s not true, but who can tell when they’re going through the sturm und drang of it all? Certainly not me. Discipline helps keep your edge sharp. You stay honed. Write every day. Stare at a blank page. Read. Force yourself to read. Put the phone down and pick up a paperback. Trust me, you’ll be happy you did. Go to movies. Listen to music. Draw. Take a welding class. Learn to ride horses. Take a part time job running a forklift. You never know what will refill your creative cup. And you’ll be feeding yourself along the way. You know how I wrote the seven-novel series that would become “Heavenly Realms”? I worked a 3rd shift private unarmed security job in a middle-class business district. I lived in a single bedroom apartment six minutes away. Every night I would drive in with my messenger bag loaded with research books on ancient warfare, my latest manuscript that needed editing, and a flash drive. I’d sit at the computer for forty minutes and type, or at the desk and edit (depending on which stage of the process I was in). Then I’d get up and make a patrol. Sit back down. Rinse and repeat. This was habit. I had no idea how good I had it too. I thought I was miserable, heartbroken over a girl and barely making ends meet. When I look back on it, those were the best days of my life. I had stability and routine. I had the peace of going home at the end of the day knowing that I’d accomplished something. Another chapter done. Something more to look forward to the next night, and handheld tape recorders and notepads in between. Back then (this was the 2000s), I only checked my emails and social media accounts once a day, in the mornings before bed. Can you imagine? I dream of going back to that life.

The problem, though, is that without a network–whether it be mentors, friends or anyone to hold you accountable–you become myopic. You flounder about, like a fish flopping on the deck. It’s easy to lose your rudder, because there’s no one there to help bolt it back to your vessel. You need accountability partners. You need someone to hold your feet to the fire and call you a jackass when you get lazy. “Have you written anything today?” No. “Well, why not?” I’ve been busy. “Bullshit. Get up and let’s go for a walk. Then get your ass inside and start hammering those keys.” Whether that’s a forum in cyberspace or your brother who shares the house with you, without that you will die in isolation.

I’ll tell you another couple of obstacles that I had to overcome. Bear with me here.

One was finding my voice as a writer. This changes over time. Like anything, you get better. When I got into shooting, I was clumsy and inaccurate. Now I can hit a target from five football fields away and hammer a steel plate with a handgun at twenty-five yards from a kneeling position drawing from a hip holster. Think about it: what was your first kiss like? Or the first time you rode a horse? Or the first poem you ever wrote? Skill builds with repetition and learning from your betters. After writing novels for twenty years, I’ve learned that you WILL find a groove. The first draft of “Empyrean Falling” was 1147 pages long! Now it’s 400. A lot of that was trimming the fat of unnecessary material but half the battle was learning the economy of words; say more with less.

Another one that I didn’t realize until I went back and revised the Heavenly Realms series was an unpopular opinion: if you’re going to write a series, it’s not a bad idea to finish the whole thing before trying to get the first one published. When I finished “Pandemonium Rising” (the seventh and final novel in the Heavenly Realms series), I had developed other plot elements and characters along the way that could have used more frontloading in the first few novels. I didn’t have a plan, just a bunch of ideas. You should have a plan, but recognize that no plan survives first contact with the enemy. And make no mistake, this is a war, baby. And your creativity has enemies. Stick to your guns. Get better at your craft. Learn discipline and patience. And trust the Lord’s timing. If I’d gotten my wish and published “Empyrean Falling” in 2005, when I finished the first draft, it would have been a disaster. Hindsight has its uses for your peace of mind, but don’t be afraid to have faith.

Jonathan, before we move on to more of these sorts of questions, can you take some time to bring our readers up to speed on you and what you do?

I’m a 39 year-old, single, straight, white, conservative, Christian, Southern man with libertarian leanings. This comes with its own set of issues, for sure, but I’m happy with who I am. As Rust Cohle says in “True Detective”, “Given how long it’s taken for me to reconcile my nature, I can’t figure I’d forego it on your account…” I spent over a decade trying to be something I’m not. I tried to be someone else, in order to make other people happy…especially the opposite sex. I walked away from my religion; I stopped listening to the music I loved; I tried to appease others. We live in a society and no man is an island, but the only thing worse than being a monster is being a liar. That IS monstrous. No matter what good you do, it will always be gilded in the phony shellacking of a fraud. You have to coexist with society and obey its laws, but you have to be authentic as well. Don’t deny your true self. God made you a certain way. What crime against Heaven would it be to reshape that image into something you were never designed to be? There’s no humility in self-loathing, just the hubris of an ideal that doesn’t exist. And remember: pride brought the mightiest angel low. If it could happen to him, it can happen to you.

I got into writing because I loved war stories. I don’t know why. My family was not strong in the military (the men served, but it was never pressed upon us). I tried until I was too old to get into the Marines. A surgery I had when I was 2 years old kept me out (the DoD considered it a “permanent medical disqualifier”). They wouldn’t give me a waiver. Neither would any other branch. So it goes. But I was fascinated with the drama of war stories: the honor, the sacrifice, the heroism, the nobility, the courage…it spoke to something in me that no one in my waking hours could address. I think for many men there is a warrior archetype that exists within us. The Heavenly Realms series–epic Christian fantasy novels about the wars between the angels–arose from that need. I wanted to write something for me, a fighting-age male, but from a Christian angle. I loved “Lord of the Rings”, “Braveheart”, “The 13th Warrior”, “Gladiator”, “Gates of Fire”, and the action scenes from “Paradise Lost”. What would it look like if someone took those gritty war movies and applied them to the war in Heaven? What if there was a brutal war here on Earth for the souls of humanity that took place behind-the-scenes, like “The Matrix” or “The Prophecy”? I wanted to see THAT. And no one was making it. In a way, no one is still making it (though there have been several attempts that have skirted the subject matter). The Marvel movies get close, but even those lack the grand scale that I desired, a la “Warhammer 40K”. You remember that scene from the intro to “The Fellowship of the Ring”, where the Last Alliance of Men and Elves marches on Mount Doom to face the Dark Lord Sauron? That minute of film inspired me more than the rest of the trilogy combined. That and Kevin Smith’s “Dogma” but that’s a whole other rant.

I didn’t want to tell a literalist view of the Bible. After all, it says precious little about the angels. There’s not enough material there to build a functioning creative universe around; so much of the world-building had to be constructed from whole cloth. I tried very hard not to violate anything the Bible says about the matter, but I always have to remind people that this is a work of fiction. It’s a story…and not just a story about angels, but a story about us. The angels have wings, fiery eyes, and halos but internally they resemble us. They fight like us, talk like us, and have all the struggles that we have. Much of Heavenly Realms was self-therapy. That’s what writing is for most people, by the way. It’s cheaper than going to a counselor (though I did that too, thanks to a couple of women breaking my heart).

Ultimately, my Heavenly Realms series is about the human condition as it relates to faith in God, despite the focus being on archangels and angels. Their struggles are our struggles. Michael is a drunk. Gabriel is a coward. Lucifer is a fake (remember what I said about pride and self-loathing). The cherubim are warriors. The seraphim are messengers. Not everyone gets along. Oftentimes, the Faithful are at each other’s throats and the Fallen want no part in the Wars! There’s jealousy, conviction, petty squabbling, and heroic sacrifice.  There are castles, sieges, phalanxes and magical swords too but, beneath the fantastical veneer, we can relate to the characters of Heavenly Realms. Their sins are our sins. Their fears are our fears. They are siblings torn apart by civil war. I know everyone knocks it, but go watch “Gettysburg”. That’s a great example of brotherhood under fire and how ideologies can cost good people their lives. Heavenly Realms showcases our failures, and what happens when we don’t seek first the Kingdom of Heaven, and let our fear defeat our faith.

I’ve had Navy SEALs love my books. I’ve been told by retired grandmothers that Heavenly Realms rekindled their love of reading. I’ve had homeschooling housewives leave glowing reviews. The ending of “Grey Aegis”, the second book in the series, left my mother in tears…and she was not shy about critiquing my work (her love for me was pure, as all good mothers’ love is). My father constantly encouraged me, though he often had a hard time keeping up with all the weird names and characters. But seeing their approval helped (I was probably a disappointment to them in most other facets of life, but they loved me fiercely). I always thought it would be other fighting-age males who would gravitate towards Heavenly Realms, as it is an unapologetically masculine series of novels, but I’ve been amazed at the wide swath of demographics who have gained spiritual strength from it. It’s really ran the gamut in receptive audiences. And that cuts both ways. I have one friend who stopped reading when he found out the angels use cavalry. “Why do angels need horses?” I started to explain it to him, but then I remembered that he grew up on a farm and hates horses (as many farmers do), so I saved my breath. I’ve had construction workers and retired Army Intel guys rave about the books. And I’ve watched teenagers grill me about every little detail. So you never know who your audience is going to be and that’s okay. Just keep writing. Write for your authentic self, your TRUE SELF. And write for God. Let the chips fall where they may. You may walk away from the table loaded to the gunwales with riches, or you may have to plug away at your day job in obscurity for the rest of your life. But that’s not for you to decide. All you can do is write what is placed in your soul. You can either serve a paycheck, or your passion. But “Ye cannot serve both God and Mammon.”

Is there mission driving your creative journey?

My mission is to ultimately bring people closer to Jesus Christ. I know, I know, it sounds hokey. Mention “spiritual enlightenment” or a guru from the annals of history, and you’re fine. But mention the God of the Bible and people’s buttholes pucker. Why? I don’t know. But there’s power in a name. And I wrestle with my faith, so I get it. The struggle is waiting for you anew every morning (and is not shy about invading your dreams). I came from a stable Christian household. I had it made. But even to this day, Mark 9:24 rings true in my heart, “I believe, o Lord; help, thou, my unbelief!” I get it. This road is not easy. But you are not alone.

I don’t have answers. But if I can send one person to the Bible with an open mind and a humble heart, then I’ve done my job as a writer. I truly believe that people’s lives are made better by a belief in God. Heavenly Realms may be violent, theologically challenging epic fantasy fiction about angelic warfare, but it’s still a story about replacing fear with faith and loving thy brother. It’s about redemption when we bend the knee to the will of God. The Hero’s Journey is a great writing archetype to study, but know that true salvation doesn’t come through our works–no matter how heroic. It comes through accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. After that, we try to follow His mandates. Will we succeed? No, of course not. Matthew 5:28-29. But perhaps we can get close? And there’s merit in the attempt. We build a better world this way.

Heavenly Realms is fun. It’s exotic and weird and fantastical and ruthless and intellectual. But on an esoteric level, it’s about our sin and how we can align ourselves with the will of God to mitigate the damage we do to each other, the world, and ourselves. Grieve not the Holy Spirit. After all, it’s the only sin that doesn’t get forgiven. And what does that mean? Well, I think the Bible is intentionally vague. Perhaps it’s totally contextual, dependent upon the person? I’m sure there are theologians out there who are reading this right now and pulling their hair out. Sure, buddy. Bring it on. I spent two years in ordination class. I know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (all of them, and none…how’s that for a koan?).

Are there any books, videos or other content that you feel have meaningfully impacted your thinking?

Steven Pressfield’s “The War of Art” changed my life.

As I like to say, “Jesus saved my soul; Jordan Peterson helped save my mind; but Steven Pressfield saved my heart (from myself).” I wrestled with my failures as a man for a long time. Unmarried, no kids, no career, job-hopping, transient friends, never starving (obviously), never flourishing. What’s wrong with me? I’m not writing enough, that’s what. I’m never more at peace than when I’m in front of the laptop, typing away. Whether it’s a novel about angels or a story about the Sasquatch apocalypse, I love to write.

And if you really want to get crazy about it, get a typewriter! There’s a reason the typewriter is the logo of the livestream interview channel my brother and fellow author, Nick Goss, run. The Gosslings was born of our love for writing and typewriters. It’s become something else entirely over the course of the last year, but if you go back and watch those early episodes before we started interviewing amazingly gifted people–many of whom have become our friends–you’ll see that we have a healthy appreciation for the typewriter. It changes your voice. It forces you to plow forward at a laconic pace. There’s no mulligan on a typewriter. David Sedaris had something very funny to say about it in “Me Talk Pretty One Day”, but I’ll let you discover that one. It’s a great book, you should read it (along with his others).

But, back on topic, Steven Pressfield’s “The War of Art” was instrumental in me getting my ass in gear and knuckling down on the computer to write. And I’m old school. I still use MS Word on a PC. I still have my Yahoo email. I have stacks of research books. The Internet has made things too convenient. It’s too easy to research. But also, that’s just me being a grumpy middle-aged man. If it saves time and is free, why not? Trust me, it’s better than the $350 I spent back in 2004 on research books for ancient and medieval warfare. But I had a real problem with harnessing my gusto. “The War of Art” was like boot camp for the writer’s soul. It was a swift boot to the backside for this lowly little writer. It has a way of getting you motivated. If you’ve never read it, you’re missing out. It’s almost a fighting manual for the creative war. He has a whole series on this subject that is worth diving into. Listen to Jordan Peterson lectures to understand humanity. Read the Bible and take a study course. All of it’s probably free on YouTube at this point anyway, so you’re only spending time. And time is a finite commodity, so spend it wisely. This creative struggle takes no prisoners. Don’t give the devil his due; take it back from him.

And make no mistake, life’s not a journey; it’s a war. Employ every weapon you can get your hands on. Win every battle. Spill a red line in the sand, choose a side, and don’t give up one inch…no matter what.

Contact Info:

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thegosslings/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/heavenlyrealmsnovelseries
• Twitter: @TheGosslings
• Youtube: @TheGosslings
• Other: [email protected]

Image Credits
Chris “Tanto” Paronto (in the pictures of me with him at Treadproof Training Academy; he’s the guy in the shorts with the grey shirt). Lily, my pit-mix.