We were lucky to catch up with Denise Pierce recently and have shared our conversation below.

Denise, thanks for joining us, excited to have you contributing your stories and insights. What do you think Corporate America gets wrong in your industry? Any stories or anecdotes that illustrate why this matters?

Corporate America (as well as non-profits and government entities) tend to ignore US labor laws, especially EEO laws and the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). I have worked with both leaders and attorneys in workplaces who believe these laws are optional at best. This is a shameful epidemic in US workplaces. If you’re going to be a leader and get paid that high salary, part of doing your job is proactively making sure that your workplace complies with EEO, ADA, and safety laws so that employees are safe and can do their best. If you are a leader or lawyer in a workplace who is unwilling to ensure compliance with these laws – even if that means firing the harassers with whom you are good friends – then you are failing as a leader and you don’t deserve that position or salary.

As a person with disabilities and a woman who has experienced sexual harassment – as well as a former HR Executive – I find this appalling. That is why I wrote my book, The HR Toolkit: An Indispensable Resource for Being a Credible Activist, published by McGrawHill Business in 2010.

My editor chose the title; being a “credible activist” was a big thing in the HR world at that time. It means that you bring proof of labor laws to your leaders and lawyers if your workplace is not following them. What I learned is that some leaders and lawyers in workplaces are grateful to have that information, and others are not. It is not uncommon for HR executives to leave their jobs because their leaders and lawyers (their bosses) do not care about complying with labor laws – or to even be fired for insisting that our labor laws be complied with.

I remember when I was head of HR in one workplace, and our leaders and lawyers were so resistant to complying with labor laws that they told me that I was too much of an “employee advocate”. I was not. I told them that I am an advocate for legal compliance with labor laws, which is entirely different. They didn’t like that even though it is their jobs to also be an advocate for legal compliance.

They then hired an external law firm to present a training to all of our senior staff (including me). A lawyer presented to us, and the first thing he said was, “There is actually no such thing as sexual harassment”. I could not believe it. There had been several claims of sexual harassment at this workplace against a senior staffer with whom the leaders and lawyers were close friends. They refused to do an actual investigation, and the harasser got a slap on the wrist. Meanwhile, those who were harassed by him were all fired for one reason or another within a year or so of having made their complaints. I’m sorry to say that this is a common occurrence in US workplaces. The EEOC Is underfunded and understaffed; they don’t tend to be much help, and most people don’t realize that when you make a complaint to the EEOC, your employer just immediately wants to find a way to get rid of you – even though all US workplace handbooks will tell you that you have a right to complain to the EEOC – and by law, you do.

The best practice is to first take your complaints to HR, but most people do not trust their HR departments and for understandable reasons. People like to say that HR are the bad guys, however, it is true that there are many good, ethical people working in and leading HR departments – however – if they report to leaders and lawyers who direct them to do unethical and unlawful things – like engage in retaliation or otherwise ignore labor laws – they are going to follow orders if they need their jobs. It is a shame that employees don’t know if they can or cannot trust their HR departments because there are so many corrupt and incompetent leaders out there who demand that their HR departments act as spies instead of agents of legal compliance.

The same is unfortunately true for situations that ignore safety laws. I wish our labor laws had more teeth to hold these willful violators accountable, because most HR leaders and other employees can’t afford to be whistleblowers when whistleblowers are almost always fired and then suffer career-wise. We also need more and better protection for whistleblowers.

Denise, love having you share your insights with us. Before we ask you more questions, maybe you can take a moment to introduce yourself to our readers who might have missed our earlier conversations?

I am unable to work now because of my disabilities, however I became interested in Human Resources and compliance with labor laws when I worked at Columbia University. I studied towards two graduate degrees in Counseling Psychology and Organizational (workplace) Psychology at Columbia U at night and worked there full time in administrative positions by day. I noticed a cavernous gap between what I was learning about healthy and productive workplaces and how my workplace at CU operated.

I experienced sexual and disability harassment, extreme safety violations, and Medicaid fraud while I worked at CU. A man was electrocuted in front of me while he was fixing our air conditioning unit in our office. He died, was revived on the floor in front of my desk, and he survived but had brain damage. He was in his 20s or 30s. About two weeks after that, our office was flooded by a broken pipe in an office above that was undergoing construction. There was a puddle on my keyboard, and the carpet was soaked. My boss angrily yelled at me that he expected me to type up his chapter for his book before he left to work at another clinical location that day.

I was terrified. I had already experienced harassment working in another office at CU. I needed my job. My boss and I used to have a wonderful relationship, but as my disabilities worsened – he became more and more angry with me. He was not at all understanding or accommodating, even though he was a doctor.

I called HR for help, and they would not help me. I called the building safety offices, and they would not help me. I called the ombuds officer, and she would not help me. So, I called OSHA, and they arrived like the cavalry. I had faxed them a description of what was going on. An OSHA worker in a hard hat arrived, and he fined Columbia University $10,000 after he interviewed everyone who saw and/or heard my boss tell me to type the chapter no matter what before he left.

I then was told by our department administrator (who was arrested a few years later on felony charges of embezzlement from CU), that because I had complained to OSHA, I would not be getting a cost of living increase that year. I really needed that increase, but I didn’t get it. I then filed a retaliation complaint with OSHA, but my fellow employees were too afraid to talk to him, so his findings were that no retaliation had taken place. When he interviewed the department administrator who retaliated against me, he was told that I was a problem employee, even though I was not. I was an excellent employee. The boss who insisted I type his chapter in an unsafe environment had told me and others again and again that I was the best assistant he had ever had. He even asked me to follow him to NYU where he was going to transfer.

At the time, the internet was kind of in its infancy, so there weren’t many resources for people in my position. I wound up writing the book I wish had existed when I needed help. My book has 100 sample memos that people can use in almost any situation when their workplace is violating labor laws. The memos are written as though they are from HR leaders, but they can easily be changed so that any employee at any level can adapt them for their own use.

I’ve gotten feedback that the book has helped many people, and I am proud of that. I hope this helps HR leaders and employees at every level to stand up for themselves and simultaneously educate leaders who utterly fail to comply with labor laws. In our modern world with information everywhere, failing to comply with labor laws is a choice – an unlawful and cowardly choice.

I think what sets my book apart from others is that it empowers people to stand up for themselves and gives them the words in memo form to do just that. I know from experience that when one is experiencing harassment, safety violations, or retaliation – it is so stressful that it can be hard to know what to do to effectively stand up for oneself. That is why my book includes sample memos, which contain all the right words to use so that workplace leaders and lawyers ought to take those memos seriously. Of course, it’s not foolproof, as there are unfortunately still leaders and lawyers out there who will still fire people unlawfully no matter what.

There are too many books out there who advise people to keep their heads down and try to fit in – which often translates to doing nothing about harassment, retaliation, and safety violations. That is a real shame, in my opinion.

I want people to know that even though it can be terrifying to stand up to employers who do not comply with labor laws, that it’s important to do so. I also do understand that not everyone is in a position to do so. Maybe they don’t have other job options or supportive family who can help them if they lose their job – or perhaps there are no other employers in their area or they absolutely cannot be without health insurance even for a short time. I really wish our labor laws had more teeth so people would not suffer in non-compliant workplaces, and I also wish we had a national healthcare plan that wasn’t linked to employment, so people would be more free to leave awful and/or unlawful working conditions.

Let’s talk about resilience next – do you have a story you can share with us?

I began having symptoms of my disabilities in my late 20s when I worked at Columbia University Medical School. I saw many specialists there, and nobody could help me. I had a chronic cough that would not go away. I was also in graduate school at night. My cough was something I could not control, it could be loud, and I knew it was annoying to others – but there was nothing I could do about it. I was trying to make it stop, but no medications, tests, or surgeries helped.

My cough continued to worsen with time. I experienced harassment from fellow employees because of my cough. I learned that I was being ridiculed about my cough behind my back. I was very hurt and shocked to learn that other senior staff were doing this. I really did not think of myself as disabled until I learned that I was being mocked for a chronic health condition over which I had no control. I also learned that one of the high-level co-workers who had been mocking my cough was also spreading untrue rumors about me saying that I was pregnant with the child of another co-worker. This other co-worker and I had no romantic involvement at any time, but he was often in my office because he had two employees who often showed up late and didn’t perform their duties.

I did file a formal complaint against this harasser, and it did not go well. I was the highest ranking HR employee in this workplace. I could not do the necessary investigation since I was also the complainant. Unfortunately, this is when I learned just how close and friendly this harasser was to our General Counsel and our President. They did not want to give him real consequences. I have friends who work in very ethical law firms, and they told me that if he had done those things in their firm, he would have been fired immediately. But all they did with this harasser was make him watch a video about sexual harassment and apologize to me.

I then began passing out from my cough on a daily basis, and I had to stop working. My condition has continued to worsen over the subsequent decade, and my entire life has changed. I am lucky to have very supportive friends and an amazing husband,

I learned from other co-workers that the harasser with whom I worked, the General Counsel, and others there continued to mock my disabilities even after I left the workplace. I also learned that they mocked my book. I cannot explain the cruelty of people who definitely know better, and I also cannot explain the thinking of lawyers who think that EEO and ADA laws are optional – but this is where we are in the US.

I am just grateful that I was able to write the book when I did, that I endured and got through the extremely difficult workplace harassment, and that I turned those experiences into a book – which I know has helped others.

What’s a lesson you had to unlearn and what’s the backstory?

I had to unlearn several lessons: – that HR must be full of ethical people committed to legal compliance
– and that HR is full of unethical, terrible people

As an employee in my 20s at Columbia University, I naively believed that I could just go to HR, and I would be helped because after all there are laws with which workplaces must comply! I learned the hard way that this was not true. My boss at the time was a very powerful man, and they weren’t going to do anything to him. I was lucky that OSHA came to the rescue, sort of. Then I learned that even external agencies like OSHA and the EEOC won’t necessarily help with harassment or retaliation even when there is proof. They are underfunded and understaffed for the amount of complaints they get.

When I studied and strove to BE that ethical HR leader who would ensure legal compliance, I learned that no matter how ethical I was, if the leaders and lawyers above me were determined to violate labor laws – there was nothing I could do about it. If I continued to point out to them that they were violating labor laws, they were going to become increasingly displeased with me. They wanted me to shut up about it. They didn’t care. So, I learned that when HR is not complying with labor laws, it’s probably because they are being directed to operate that way. The buck stops with leaders of workplaces in most cases.

Because of these power dynamics, HR is an extremely stressful job if you have a conscience and work for unethical people. That kind of stress is not healthy for anyone, but especially not for people with chronic health conditions.

Contact Info:

• Website: https://workplacecredibleactivist.wordpress.com/books-by-denise/
• Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/denisearomano/
• Other: I am no longer able to work, but I hope people find my book helpful. When I wrote the book, my last name was Romano. I have since married and have changed my last name to Pierce. I am so proud of any employee at any level who stands up for themselves against any kind of labor law violation whether it’s harassment, union-busting, safety violations, ADA and EEO violations, or anything else. I hope people will continue to find the sample memos in my book helpful during those extremely stressful times.

Image Credits
Credit for photo of my holding my book: Jon Pierce Credit for book cover: Denise Pierce, MA, Edm.